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- cross-posted to:
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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.zip/post/614691
Video: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-66252974
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Jokes on them, there were like ten korans in that building.
they got permission to burn the embassy as form of freedom of expression
Someone new got approved to burn another one outside the Iraqi embassy in Stockholm, that’s why there’s a new reaction.
Tbh I personally don’t think it should be allowed to actively provoke and incite hatred against an ethnic group. Sweden already has a law specifically against this (incitement against ethnic group), which lists religious belief as a group covered by the law. However, there has only been one case that went to the courts trying specifically a Quran burning, and the context was a bit different so it was dismissed. The Quran burning previous to the one in the article has been reported to the police, and imo it should go to trial so we can test the limits of the incitement law. That Quran was burned directly as a statement outside a mosque, during Eid, which is a context that could be illegal under that law.
To clarify, people should be able to burn whatever books and symbols they want and express whatever vile or justified opinions they have under freedom of speech in Sweden- but not in every context and forum everywhere, as direct provocation and incitement. This is actually the majority opinion of Swedes (source in Swedish).
But we’ll see what happens. I discussed this with a lawyer I know, who agreed that it should be prosecuted and go to trial so we can see how it fares in court.
Controversial opinion of an atheist:
Most religion is incitement to hate-crimes. While I think Sweden has probably bigger Christian societies and should probably rather burn bibles, the guy burning the Quran is an Iraqi, and therefore choosing the Quran is understandable. Afaik, he protested against his own former repression by Muslim religion whe still lived in Iraq.
Religion is notoriously used to reduce other people’s freedom. Be it fundamental Christians e.g. in the US or Poland denying healthcare to pregnant women, be it the atrocities committed by the “moral police” in Iran, be it other religions killing people for their sexuality. I support the idea that religious law should be limited to followers of that religion, and no person should be forced in any way to follow or keeps following any religion. Those are fundamental human rights principles in my eyes.
I mean, as a fellow atheist I don’t disagree. What I’m saying is that there are groups that are targeted (in Swedish society) specifically for their affiliation with a religion, their sexual orientation etc. Protesting religions is fine and IS protected speech.
But certain actions are only meant to provoke, disrespect and incite. The Iraqi guy is well within his rights to protest and criticize Islam; the question here is whether the manner of his “protest” was protected speech or if choosing that specific action, time and place for his protest, all taken together, tip the scales from valid and protected religious critique into something else. If the main intent was to incite, disrespect and provoke, it might not be protected speech.
That said, I’m not a fan of most religions. Specifically when religion is used as a justification to impose prescriptive and restrictive rules on others both within and outside of that religion (pro life, gender roles, prescriptive clothing like Muslim head coverings, prescriptive rules regarding birth control or sex, discrimination or persecution of LGBTQ people etc).
I think it’s stupid, moronic, and childish to burn Qur’ans and other associated acts of deliberate provocation, but (and this is admittedly the American in me speaking), I’d very strongly be against it being a crime. The ability to tolerate strong disagreements with your own closely held beliefs is a foundational pillar of a multi-cultural and tolerant society.
Countless acts of terror have been committed in the name of the Bible, and I’m rather uncomfortable with the idea of being legally obligated to have any amount of reverence to it.
Let’s separate a hate crime (incitement against ethnic group) from blasphemy laws- we definitely do not want blasphemy laws in Sweden. Critique against religions is protected free speech, as it should be.
What isn’t protected, is your right to protest in EVERY way at EVERY place and EVERY time. Just like defamation laws are a specific reduction to the right to free speech, one can morally argue that if the intention of certain speech is to defame, grossly disrespect, provoke and incite certain protected groups of people, a reduction to the right to free speech is justified in certain contexts. I know lots of people disagree, all I’m saying is that there’s an argument for limiting free speech in some contexts (which we already do).
Feel free to have a Quran barbecue in your own back yard, but don’t throw a bacon-and-Quran barbecue in front of a mosque during Eid. You are also, certainly, allowed to criticize Islam wherever and whenever you want, that is protected speech. It’s just no longer protected when the context, manner and purpose of an action or message tips the scales from critique to incitement or hate speech.
An example of someone who actually was convicted of incitement against ethnic groups in Sweden in 2020, was a junior high school student who carved a swastika into a desk. If that is covered under the incitement law, burning the Quran in the recent contexts should be too imo (in front of embassies to Muslim countries, or mosques during the biggest Muslim holiday).
America is extreme in it’s own right with regards to free speech laws compared to the rest of the Western world. I respect that position, but don’t agree with it.
A school is not a public place, and so that isn’t an equivalent example. If the sidewalk in front of the Masjid is a public area, you should legally be able to throw a bacon-and-Koran barbecue during Eid. There is no world where you can punish people for doing that and not end up on a slippery slope that jeopardizes freedom of expression.
I understand what you’re saying, but to actually act on that and try to put it into law would be foolish.
If the sidewalk in front of the Masjid is a public area, you should legally be able to throw a bacon-and-Koran barbecue during Eid.
I kind of disagree. If you want to have a backyard bbq and burn Korans during Eid, go for it. But if you’re doing it on the sidewalk outside a mosque, your sole intent is to incite the people inside. It’s no longer about your ‘personal freedoms’.
I kind of agree, but I think it would need to be more than just burning a Qu’ran, you’d also need some inflammatory speech, like “death to Muslims” or something that would be intended to move them to violence.
Regardless, I do think there are circumstances where burning a holy book could be included as evidence in a hate crime case.
Thats a realistic interpretation of what those bbqers intent would be, but I dont think you can realistically make that illegal as the sidewalk is a public area. (I am assuming these bbqers are not breaking any other laws at all.)
Why would it being a public area prohibit making it illegal? There are tons of things that are illegal on a public sidewalk. Urination, intoxication, etc.
Because assuming theyre not breaking any other laws, I dont think you can differentiate the public place outside of a masjid from any other public place. Urination and intoxication are illegal in all public places.
We already have that law, so the only thing up for debate is interpretation? Which legal experts are busy with debating now in public discourse in Swedish media, with no clear consensus except that it should be tried in court. I understand what you mean by slippery slope, but if everything is a slippery slope we would never be able to legislate anything. And let me remind you, both Sweden and the US have already imposed certain limits to the right to free speech. Defamation, for example, is not protected speech.
I disagree that a public school isn’t a public place, but you’re technically right. It doesn’t really matter in the eyes of the Swedish law though, arguably it would be worse legally if the student had carved the swastika on a public playground outside, rather then in a semi-public spot in a school.
My mistake, I thought he was proposing a change / new law. I personally just disagree with that law then, I don’t think that creeds should be protected from hateful messages. Unless the messages amount to harassment or breaking another existing, more general law, I don’t necessarily see the issue it’s solving.
which lists religious belief as a group covered by the law
If followers of a denomination of the Invisible pink unicorn (bbHhh) are provoked by people wearing pink clothes because one of their holy books says such people should receive the death penalty, does that therefor make wearing pink clothes illegal in Sweden?
No, it doesn’t? Laws are interpreted by legal practitioners and judges, and the intentionality of the law is taken into account. One of the main intentions of this particular law is protecting Jews from persecution, and protecting Muslims from the same isn’t a huge stretch. Sure, you could argue that invisible pink unicorn followers are a protected group, but no one would take you seriously in Sweden. You are arguing an extreme interpretation in bad faith.
Yes, but the law you proposed would allow that to happen. That isn’t a straw man, it’s your proposed idea not being very good.
It’s not my proposed idea, it’s an actual, contemporary Swedish law which has existed since 1948. What is up for debate is how that law is to be interpreted in this instance, what constitutes “creed” (in, perhaps, a better translation of the original Swedish instead of “religious belief”), and what constitutes a “message” and whether burning a Quran is valid criticism of Islam or if doing it at that time and place is a hate crime targeting Muslims. It hasn’t been tried in the Swedish supreme court whether Quran burning in certain contexts like the recent events is illegal under that law or not.
Technically, sure, you could argue that everything can be a religious belief/creed and any belief is covered under that law. But that is not how the law is interpreted and used in practice. I would consider that a strawman argument then, because it intentionally misrepresents the spirit of that law.
That makes sense. I guess I don’t really see the point of the law. If a message of hate goes too far, it would already fall other applicable laws against harassment or discrimination. Why does there need to be legislation specifically protecting against hate crimes?
If you feign ignorance, and pretend that you don’t know the difference between a belief held by billions of humans, and some corny, uncreative shit you just came up with off the top of your head, does that therefore make you an actual dumbass?
If it were a Bible or a Torah that was burned we wouldn’t be having this conversation now because it wouldn’t have even made the news. There is only one major religion that reacts violently to incidents like this. I think that’s the point OP was making and it’s a valid one.
Way to completely miss (or ignore) the point I made.
But you’re right, Christians have never committed violence in the name of their faith… Lol
That’s not the same argument. Christians rarely, if ever, commit violence because of a public demonstration like burning a Bible or creating a likeness of Jesus. Christians do commit violence for other reasons though, but not for something that many would interpret as protected speech in western countries.
If you shout “FIRE!” in a crowded building (e.g. a theater), you could be held liable for the panic that could ensue. Likewise, intentionally doing things that you know would encourage violence either locally or elsewhere in the world as a direct result of the speech could be held to the same standard.
So what’s being outlawed here isn’t the burning of the Qu’ran, but the intentional incitement, which is very similar to the charges against former President Trump WRT the events of Jan. 6. If you did the same thing in a Christian context (e.g. by parading homoerotic images of Jesus outside a Baptist Church on Christmas or something), you could likely be charged. It’s the intention here that’s illegal, not the specific act.
I think we should not burn Qurans
Live pics from Sweden.
Image source: Book Burning in Berlin
The religion of peace strikes again?
Even the most peaceful person is going to get a little pissed if you burn something they hold sacred, mockingly, and then get ready to do it several times again. (After you’ve seen the distress it causes)
Maybe. Being a little pissed is everyone’s right. So, I agree with you.
Maybe you will agree that only criminally deranged idiots will turn to violence over the damaging of a book.
It’s not the damage to the book necessarily, but the complete lack of respect and intention to cause anger.
It would kind of be like burning a Constitution and American Flag on Independence Day in front of the Capitol or maybe Washington Monument. Or lighting a cross on fire in front of the Lincoln memorial on Juneteenth or MLK Jr. Day. Or setting up Swastikas in front of synagogues during Passover.
It’s essentially intentionally spreading hate. Now, if you burn a Torah, Qu’ran, and Bible as an anti-religion demonstration on some random day of the year, that’s a completely different thing. But doing such a demonstration on a religion’s holiest of days in front of that religion’s places of worship is a very different matter.
Oh no, a book was burned.
What kind of religion encourages violence over something so trivial?
All of them basically.
Nice. The redditors are so used to their echo chamber that they come out with such easy dunkables.
German spotted. Shouldn’t you be a bit more careful about inciting hatred towards religious groups?
Lmao. Surely this just proves we must burn all Quran’s.
Superstitious barbarians.
Great way to beat the Islamophobia allegations
Yeah what kind of magic do they think is going to be released from burning a book?
Wasn’t the Quran burning a while ago?
They’re a bit slow, aren’t they?
Another one was planned and given permission for today, Thursday, July 20th. So they were egged on beforehand.
Ah my bad, must’ve missed that then lmao
Meanwhile, these people routinely chant “death to America” and call for the extermination of infidels, and I, an American non-Muslim, am supposed to take it in stride.
