It’s actually more true for proof-of-work mining than it is for proof-of-stake. PoW mining has strong economies of scale, a professional miner with a warehouse full of mining rigs and a special deal with an industrial electricity supplier can churn out hashes more cheaply than a home miner can. Whereas the hardware needed for PoS is negligible so there’s nowhere near that disparity between small and large miners.
Also, under Ethereum at least (the largest proof-of-stake chain and the one I’m most familiar with the workings of), stakers don’t “dominate” the network. They have no decision-making power over what the consensus rules are. If the users decide to upgrade to a new version and the stakers refuse to go along with that or try to push an upgrade that the users don’t want then those stakers lose their stake after the resulting fork.
I agree with you but holding ETH up as a shining example of decentralization is a bit misguided, IMO.
Since they had to move to PoS from PoW, things have gotten SIGNIFICANTLY worse for their decentralization numbers. Another damning aspect of their staking tech is that, in order to stake to a pool, you need to lock your tokens away, making them impossible to spend for a specified time period. That directly compromises decentralization in that only those with vast amounts of wealth will want to lock their tokens away for long periods of time.
Anyway, most of the criticisms I have of ETH are more critical of the way they went about the transition between two radically different consensus algorithms than about Proof of Stake itself.
edit: I should have known that ETH bagholders would come out of the woodwork to present outright lies about ETH’s shoddy, compromised implementation of PoS.
I went Googling for sources, and what I found says the opposite. Ethereum was becoming increasingly centralized under PoW but after the switch to PoS it became significantly more decentralized.
in order to stake to a pool, you need to lock your tokens away, making them impossible to spend for a specified time period.
This is exactly the point of proof-of-stake. You can’t prove you’ve staked some coins if you don’t actually stake them. If you’ve retained control over your tokens then they’re not staked. I’m not sure how you think it could work otherwise.
most of the criticisms I have of ETH are more damming of the way they went about the transition between two radically different consensus algorithms than about Proof of Stake itself.
The transition from proof-of-work to proof-of-stake has been on Ethereum’s roadmap since the beginning. It was rolled out in stages over the course of years. What was “damning” about the transition?
This is exactly the point of proof-of-stake. You can’t prove you’ve staked some coins if you don’t actually stake them. If you’ve retained control over your tokens then they’re not staked. I’m not sure how you think it could work otherwise.
WOW. Straight up wrong.
I’m guessing you have a YUGE bag of ETH staked. 🤣
Since you’re so wrong, it’s clear that you are absolutely guessing here while anon is spitting facts, being intellectually honest about which drawbacks actually exist in the world for proof of stake. Take the L, dude. haha
Wow. I’m not going to take the time to reply to most of that but your most glaring bit of misinformation: that staking requires locking
Look up zero lock staking or liquid staking. You’re pretending that staking requires the inability to spend your tokens but this is demonstrably false when you look at existing implementations of PoS that don’t require it: Cardano and Polkadot are two off the top of my head that offer zero lock staking.
I googled “zero lock staking” and I’m not finding anything that contradicts what I said. There are systems that allow for delegated staking, where you hold transferable tokens that represent a share in a staking pool - rETH, for example. But there’s still locked stake in that case. And this Quora response lists various proof-of-stake systems where you can unstake immediately, including Cardano and Polkadot, but those don’t give you rewards while your tokens aren’t staked - the token still needs to be locked during the staking itself.
I asked for clarification on what you found “damning” about the transition to proof of stake, I don’t see how asking for clarification is “misinformation.”
I presented a source for Ethereum’s centralization trends. Got any of your own?
Wow, you went from zero to furious at the drop of a hat. And I’m not a “bagholder”, as I’ve said in other comments, I’m just interested in the tech.
I haven’t argued any of these facts. “How TF else should they do it?!” could be my line here, except that I’m trying to remain civil so I wouldn’t have worded it that way. This ultimately comes from your statement:
Another damning aspect of their staking tech is that, in order to stake to a pool, you need to lock your tokens away, making them impossible to spend for a specified time period.
Which I still don’t see as “damning” because - as you just said - how else would they do it? Cardano and Polkadot do it the same way, they’ve just changed the value of what that “specified time period” is.
I specifically mentioned Rocket Pool’s rETH as an example of delegated staking that would let you sell your staked tokens more quickly, that’s on Ethereum so if the exit queue is too long for you there you can try that instead.
Which is just as true with mining, except money is staked into mining rigs.
It’s actually more true for proof-of-work mining than it is for proof-of-stake. PoW mining has strong economies of scale, a professional miner with a warehouse full of mining rigs and a special deal with an industrial electricity supplier can churn out hashes more cheaply than a home miner can. Whereas the hardware needed for PoS is negligible so there’s nowhere near that disparity between small and large miners.
Also, under Ethereum at least (the largest proof-of-stake chain and the one I’m most familiar with the workings of), stakers don’t “dominate” the network. They have no decision-making power over what the consensus rules are. If the users decide to upgrade to a new version and the stakers refuse to go along with that or try to push an upgrade that the users don’t want then those stakers lose their stake after the resulting fork.
I agree with you but holding ETH up as a shining example of decentralization is a bit misguided, IMO.
Since they had to move to PoS from PoW, things have gotten SIGNIFICANTLY worse for their decentralization numbers. Another damning aspect of their staking tech is that, in order to stake to a pool, you need to lock your tokens away, making them impossible to spend for a specified time period. That directly compromises decentralization in that only those with vast amounts of wealth will want to lock their tokens away for long periods of time.
Anyway, most of the criticisms I have of ETH are more critical of the way they went about the transition between two radically different consensus algorithms than about Proof of Stake itself.
edit: I should have known that ETH bagholders would come out of the woodwork to present outright lies about ETH’s shoddy, compromised implementation of PoS.
I went Googling for sources, and what I found says the opposite. Ethereum was becoming increasingly centralized under PoW but after the switch to PoS it became significantly more decentralized.
This is exactly the point of proof-of-stake. You can’t prove you’ve staked some coins if you don’t actually stake them. If you’ve retained control over your tokens then they’re not staked. I’m not sure how you think it could work otherwise.
The transition from proof-of-work to proof-of-stake has been on Ethereum’s roadmap since the beginning. It was rolled out in stages over the course of years. What was “damning” about the transition?
WOW. Straight up wrong.
I’m guessing you have a YUGE bag of ETH staked. 🤣
Since you’re so wrong, it’s clear that you are absolutely guessing here while anon is spitting facts, being intellectually honest about which drawbacks actually exist in the world for proof of stake. Take the L, dude. haha
You’re guessing wrong, I’m not a “bagholder.” I’m just interested in the tech.
I’ve provided specific examples and links to references. Anon’s not done any of that, he’s just got mad. Like you, too. Calm down.
Wow. I’m not going to take the time to reply to most of that but your most glaring bit of misinformation: that staking requires locking
Look up zero lock staking or liquid staking. You’re pretending that staking requires the inability to spend your tokens but this is demonstrably false when you look at existing implementations of PoS that don’t require it: Cardano and Polkadot are two off the top of my head that offer zero lock staking.
I googled “zero lock staking” and I’m not finding anything that contradicts what I said. There are systems that allow for delegated staking, where you hold transferable tokens that represent a share in a staking pool - rETH, for example. But there’s still locked stake in that case. And this Quora response lists various proof-of-stake systems where you can unstake immediately, including Cardano and Polkadot, but those don’t give you rewards while your tokens aren’t staked - the token still needs to be locked during the staking itself.
I asked for clarification on what you found “damning” about the transition to proof of stake, I don’t see how asking for clarification is “misinformation.”
I presented a source for Ethereum’s centralization trends. Got any of your own?
of course you don’t get rewards if you spend your staked tokens. How TF else should they do it?!
It is not locked in chains like Polkadot and Cardano. You can, quite literally, stake your coins then two seconds later spend them. They aren’t locked from being spent. That is called ZERO LOCK or LIQUID STAKING. THERE IS NO LOCK PERIOD LIKE THEY HAVE IN ETH.
At this point, I am done arguing about literal facts with an ETH bagholder.
Wow, you went from zero to furious at the drop of a hat. And I’m not a “bagholder”, as I’ve said in other comments, I’m just interested in the tech.
I haven’t argued any of these facts. “How TF else should they do it?!” could be my line here, except that I’m trying to remain civil so I wouldn’t have worded it that way. This ultimately comes from your statement:
Which I still don’t see as “damning” because - as you just said - how else would they do it? Cardano and Polkadot do it the same way, they’ve just changed the value of what that “specified time period” is.
I specifically mentioned Rocket Pool’s rETH as an example of delegated staking that would let you sell your staked tokens more quickly, that’s on Ethereum so if the exit queue is too long for you there you can try that instead.
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