Everyone responsible should face justice as war criminals.
deleted by creator
Removed by mod
Recent reports seem to indicate that the cafe was used as a meeting point for uniformed military personnel.
This has also happened in the past: https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-sleeper-agent-filmed-crowded-restaurant-missile-attack-ukraine-says-2023-6
In this proxy war between Russia and the West, it’s Ukrainian civilians that suffer the most.
Calling it a proxy war implies Russia isn’t the aggressor nor directly participating in the war. Also, damn imagine somewhere in Ukraine being a gathering point for checks notes Ukrainians.
For uniformed Ukrainian military personnel?
The entire country is mobilized, I suspect it would be hard to find anywhere that doesn’t have uniformed personal. They still have to eat, this was a restaurant not a military target. Better blow up the local gas station too because uniformed people vist for snacks.
Edit: spelling
Is a meeting of uniformed military officers not a clear military objective who’s destruction nets a clear (and quantifiable) military advantage? This would fall under the principle of proportionality: will the number of expected active military casualties net an advantage proportional to the loss of civilian life? Russian precedent does seems to indicate that they gather intelligence in the area to confirm military objectives before performing a deep missile strike directly on top of civilians, so the strike on its own is not necessarily a violation of conduct in armed conflict.
That’s the risk of walking around in military uniform during an active conflict and the reason behind why there are usually so many restrictions to wearing uniform while off-duty. The only active military personnel not considered combatants IIRC are medical and religious personnel who are required to clearly display their role as such.
Edit: Generally, going out for a meeting at a cafe in Kharkiv with other uniformed military would suggest that these are higher-ranked officials. It’s far from the frontline and in a big city, so you’d expect typical soldiers to not be in uniform. We simply don’t have the evidence necessary for this attack and neither side wants to reveal it (Russia, because it might reveal the identify of their intelligence assets and Ukraine, because it might reveal a weakness caused by the strike and lose the PR advantage they currently have and can use to get more Western weapons).
Edit2: turns out I was wrong about this. I still stand behind uniformed military personnel being valid military targets in a war, but Russia seems to have completely disregarded the concept of proportionality in this strike and didn’t even attempt to minimize civilian casualties for a strike that achieves no real strategic advantage (and in fact is likely to boost anti-Russian sentiment among Ukrainians). What a massive blunder and what a waste of human life.
The gathering is reported to be friends and family mouring the loss of a Ukrainian soldier. The attack killed 1/6th the local town’s population. The U.N. is investigating the attack for war crimes. You know what? Maybe I agree with you, based on how the war is going I will assume the “intelligence gathering” was on par with the rest of the Russian war efforts. Piss poor.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/06/hroza-kharkiv-missile-strike-ukraine/
Edit: Spelling
Who the fuck uses an Iskander to target a group of friends and family in the middle of nowhere? Either there was some high-ranking Ukrainian officer at the funeral or Russia got shoddy reports that there would be and fucked up their target confirmation.
As far as terror attacks go, there are frankly much easier and much more impactful targets. As far as military targets go, there are far more strategic targets with lower risk of civilian casualties. A group of low-ranked military personnel and their families is hardly a high-value strategic target.
Something isn’t adding up, so I think you’re right and Russian intelligence fucked up badly. Corroborating this is that we’ve had no Russian confirmation of the death of whoever the target was supposed to be.
Edit: looking more closely at new reports, it really does seem like Russia fucked up bad. It’s a completely disproportionate response to (from what I can tell) seems like a meeting of low-value targets in a non-military context surrounded by civilians.
Wait you deleted your last argument defending Russia yesterday, to replace it with a whole new one? Because you were wrong? 😂
Including deleting everyone else’s comments including mine. What was that about abusing admin privileges you were talking about yesterday?
I didn’t delete it dude lol I swear
Edit: the modlog will back me up here
Edit 2: my last mod action was deleting a spam post yesterday
Edit 3: the only time I don’t mark edits is when they’re done literally minutes after posting and because they don’t change my point (spacing, sources). I’ve marked all of my edits regarding this issue because, after looking at the new information that had come up, I realized that I was entirely wrong and Russian actions were completely violating standards of conduct in armed conflict.
Edit 4: the comments are still showing up on the alt I lurk on so idk what’s going on lol
“In the meantime, we must not forget: it was Russia that launched the invasion of Ukraine and it is Russia that is responsible for bringing war to our country”
Ah yes, because drone strikes on schools in Donbas isn’t a war and jailing opposition leaders is what normal countries do.
The period between Euromaidan and the SMO is rather terrifying. Suggesting that the war started with the SMO is completely missing the context of what happened prior to that event.
Context doesn’t justify an action, but it’s important for understanding it. The same applies here: the context of the Russian invasion doesn’t justify Ukraine launching missiles at their own civilians, but it helps us understand why it happened.
Edit: with further context being revealed in the past day, I was wrong on this. The casualty count in this context is indicative of a precision strike and a gathering of friends and family and low-ranked military personnel is not a valid proportional military target to even come close to justifying the civilian casualties under international conduct code for armed conflict. Sorry, everyone.
Oh boohoo Russia HAD to invade and kill civilians. Who’s all over the whataboutism now
Does that justify Ukraine launching missiles at their own civilians?
They didn’t. Whataboutwhataboutwhataboutwhatabout being morally bankrupt
“In the meantime, we must not forget: it was Russia that launched the invasion of Ukraine and it is Russia that is responsible for bringing war to our country”
Welcome back.
How the fuck are you allowed to be the mod of this community.
Ukr gains nothing from false flags, but go off and tell us how it was a false flag no question
He probably means that a Ukranian AA interceptor either itself landed on the shop, or knocked the Russian missile off course causing the incident.
Completely ignoring that either scenario would have never happened if there was no Russian missile to begin with. Nor that the Russians consider civilian targets good use for their munitions.
The argument is in bad faith, I would suggest down voting the tankies and moving on.
Targeting of military targets is entirely valid. It’s a war. You hit military targets. That’s sort of how war works.
Ukraine has been slowly losing Western support for months, so there’s definitely something to gain.
It’s far more likely to be another equipment malfunction (I’m guessing infrared targeting locked onto the wrong heat signature or something stupid?), just like the market strike.
yeah i wonder as well. always a russian missile until people take a look at it and it’s radio silence from there lol.
funny how russia always gets clowned on for their false flags (they’re laughably bad anyways) but when ukraine does it (and a decent job at one too) the ukraine supporters always do whataboutism.
always at strangely convenient times too.
i’m all for support for ukraine (it’s people anyways). going to the equivalent of a vatnik doesn’t help anyone.
