The phenomenon of sovereign citizens persistently trying to win court cases with their principles, despite a lack of success, is indeed puzzling. On YouTube alone, there are around 5,000 videos showing sovereign citizens facing defeat in the courtroom. These individuals often make claims that have yet to prove successful and frequently end up incarcerated.
Why do people continue to adopt this seemingly futile approach? It’s akin to watching 5,000 parachutists attempt a failed jump from the Eiffel Tower, only for newcomers to keep trying despite knowing, or perhaps ignoring, the inevitable outcome. Despite the growing pile of mangled bodies at the base of the tower, every day people decide to climb up and try for themselves.
The dedication of these individuals is noteworthy; they invest a great deal of time mastering the intricacies of their “sovereign” defense. Yet, it seems that they dedicate little time to researching previous legal outcomes or understanding why their arguments haven’t held up in court historically.
What drives this persistence? Is it a deep-seated belief system that overrides rational analysis, or is there another factor at play that encourages them to keep going despite overwhelming evidence of failure?
Because they’re too dumb to realize how dumb they are.
It’s the same way people will believe conspiracy theories or trust homeopathic remedies despite all the evidence against them. The world is complicated. Sometimes people think the simple solution must be the correct one, but that’s not really the truth.
https://youtu.be/OC375rujZhs but in bullshit legal magic mumbo jumbo form.
Think of how stupid the average person is, then realize half of them are stupider than that. - Carlin
The dedication of these individuals is noteworthy… What drives this persistence? Is it a deep-seated belief system that overrides rational analysis
It’s a lovely little combo of desperation and digging themselves into a hole. Most of the elements of sovereign citizens come from people who are not in good situations, as outlined by the canadian court’s very thorough opinion (which has already been linked twice in this thread, so I won’t bother it again). Once you’re in it, the same situation occurs that you can see with people in cults, mlm companies, or ponzi schemes. Maybe if you keep going, and pushing through the pain right now, you’ll get that mythical payoff. The alternative is to face the fact that you’ve likely ruined your life, rendering impossible whatever you hoped to achieve in the legal system in the first place.
An interesting addendum to your question: this is not a exclusively US based phenomenon. In Germany there are the Reichsbürgers they have similar ideas.
They think legally the state has no claim to rule and most people just don’t know they still live in the German Reich still.
So they have their own king selling them passports and they have pretty aggressive group think to try and enforce their claims.
My wife’s dad is one of them. The main thing I recognize comes from a pathological need to know better than everybody else. It’s very tightly coupled to their sense of worth and identity. They are better than everybody else because they have seen the light.
Pretty culty behavior and just enough pseudo truth to keep simple minds saying “yeah there might be something there”. Like “vaccination causes autism, they just don’t want you to know”.
Makes a loser in societies eyes, but a superhuman in their eyes. And yes, they still run into a wall and just keep trying to adjust their angle to hit that sacred sweet spot. Because now they need to prove how they are better and as they already have sacrificed so much they can’t be wrong to continue. (Just like a gambler who already lost a lot.)
So it’s a few psychological dynamics that grip into each other like gears and that ratchet them ever so tightly to their belief until there is no turning back.
I think it’s low level mental illness or some yet to be diagnosed mental condition. I don’t think it manifests itself strictly in Sov Cit folks. Think of those people who go full Don Quixote over some perceived wrong wrought onto them. They dig themselves in to fight something ridiculous and impossible to win -for they have no case- and spend their lives dedicated to it, never giving up or letting it go. The Sov Cit dudes at least have each other to commiserate.
Yeah this is some kind of specific oppositional defiance disorder
This was my dad but thankfully he had ADHD, so he’d forget to hold a grudge after a day or two.
Still, it was annoying that every single minor inconvenience was this great injustice made to torture specifically him. He definitely was a narcissist with a healthy dose of main character syndrome thrown in for good measure.
They believe that the right amount of good spells recited in the correct order will grant them victory. Unfortunately they’ve studied a different magic book than most people, so their magic does not work on others.
It’s funny because the EXACT SAME ARGUMENTS work for cops.
Speeding? You mean traveling in a conveyance.
Assault and battery? You mean protecting and serving.
Deprivation of rights, kidnapping, and false imprisonment? You see, your honor, I didn’t know about any of that stuff so it shouldn’t apply to me.
In conclusion, the only “sovereign citizens” in this country are the bitches in blue.
Police have special powers according to the law, so no, the same arguments don’t work.
They REALLY don’t. They have very situational allowances that have become defacto “special powers” thanks to a combination of decades of copaganda and huckster “warrior programs” that teach wannabe bullies that they are the most important of gods special snowflakes whose only responsibility is saving their own ass.
Check out the guy that got stabbed in the face repeatedly on an NY subway while cops watched from 10 feet away, behind a safety door meant to protect the train conductor. Took them to court because their motto was literally “protect and serve” and got a real live judge to say out loud that it wasn’t literal and cops have no duty to actually protect or serve anyone, legally.
They REALLY do. What you call “situational allowances” are what we’re talking about. You can’t turn on some flashing lights and speed through red lights to get to a crime legally. They can.
Police have special powers that the rest of us don’t have. If they didn’t then police wouldn’t even exist.
The problem I’m talking about is when they speed through red lights because they think they have these “special powers” when they law is EXCRUCIATINGLY explicit on exactly when and why cops can sometimes disregard certain legal requirements. That does not mean they can do what they want when they want. That’s exactly the kind of people OP is talking about, and that’s cops. To a fuckin T. Nobody else goes to court, cries ignorance as an excuse, and expects to get away with it.
My real problem is that it works for them. Qualified immunity is a disgrace to law, as is the absolute immunity enjoyed by judges and magistrates. You want to fix law, fix that first.
Ok so your issue is that police abuse their powers, powers that regular citizens do not have. I agree that’s a huge problem and it should be addressed regularly.
That has nothing to do with the discussion at hand though. Sovereign citizens live in la-la-land. There are no special hidden laws about “travelling vs driving” where you don’t need a drivers license to drive on public roads. There are laws that allow police to speed and go through red lights.
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Man you must have tried hard not to understand his point that you missed it this badly.
The prerequisite for joining such hyperindividualistic ideologies is the belief that you’re better/more important than others, that the work of others can’t be depended on (“if you want it done right, you’ve got to to it yourself” fallacy mindset).
So:
Why do people continue to adopt this seemingly futile approach? It’s akin to watching 5,000 parachutists attempt a failed jump from the Eiffel Tower, only for newcomers to keep trying despite knowing, or perhaps ignoring, the inevitable outcome. Despite the growing pile of mangled bodies at the base of the tower, every day people decide to climb up and try for themselves.
“Well duh, those people failed because they weren’t me!”
While what you said is true, you’re neglecting that it’s not entirely based on selfish ideations.
There are people selling courses and profiting heavily from tricking those people into thinking that these strategies work. They pretend they’ve won cases like this, that the loopholes are real, that many people are singing them praises. The failed attempts are just “the loud minority that screwed up the process”.
To be clear, there really is no such thing as a “Sovereign Citizen” except in their own brain.
They believe that there is some hidden loophole that only “smart” people understand that allows them to reap the benefits of being a part of a society without having to be subject to any of its rules; and that that cheat code is accessed via some combination of paperwork that the government keeps hidden from the public.
Essentially, to them, the social contract (ie. citizens voluntary give up certain rights like the right to speed through red lights, the right to murder, etc… and subject themselves to laws of the state in exchange for that state providing them with roads, infrastructure, stability, prosperity and the right certain inalienable freedoms) is just for suckers who don’t know the correct forms to fill out.
It’s absolute mind-numbing stupidity of the highest order.
If they were reasonable or intelligent they wouldn’t be what they are in the first place.
Because people are idiots
Sin is never a sufficient explanation for human behavior. Meaning anytime we think “it’s because they are bad”, we’re missing something big.
All behavior is an attempt to meet needs. Any correct explanation of behavior identifies the need and how the behavior is believed to meet it.
They may not be smart, on average as a group. But that’s not why they keep doing this.
I never said anything about sin. The whole concept of sin is religious bullshit anyway, of which the existence can be explained the same way as OP’s question. People are idiots. They either are incapable of thinking or unwilling to do so.
They keep doing this because there are scammers and grifters getting rich pushing this content to lots and lots and lots of people because of the view-based revenue they get from doing it and big tech’s algorithms reward it with more views and more success. And sometimes they also get rich taking some of those people’s money, specifically the dumb and desperate and paranoid delusional people who are terrified of “the man” and the government and think they have found the secret cheat code of avoiding government.
People do it because they’re dumb, but they’re dumb because it gets shown and promoted specifically to them over and over again because Google et al have gotten really good at identifying people susceptible to nonsense and constantly shoving things like this down their throats until their brains literally rot. As the saying goes, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.” And big tech keeps doing that, individually and specifically, to many people including children, possibly without even any particular intention to cause harm besides the idea that it will keep them watching even more videos and earning even more ad revenue. Even giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are not intentionally causing harm, their apathy and apologism for the harm they are causing is horrific and unforgivable and sovereign citizens are just one of many highly destructive content funnels that modern algorithms empirically promote.
Content discovery is utterly toxic and it is literally, not exaggerating at all, destroying civilization.
You can be smart, but still be an idiot.
- They DO see people claiming success.
These include scammers, and suckers who don’t want to admit they’re wrong.
- Their sovcit actions DO occasionally lead to success.
The rare success isn’t due to it being valid, but rather because the officials don’t want to deal with a crazy person. For example police sometimes let sovcit people out of getting a ticket because sovcits can be dangerous wackos and the cop just doesn’t want to deal with them. Another example is sometimes a government clerk will actually file an actually useful form to do a thing even when the sovcit tries to file some crazy nonsense form.
Sovcits love to video every single interaction with the police. Certainly if they were having large amounts of tickets or infractions dismissed, they’d be #1 hits on YouTube. Yet, in every single video you can find, it’s a big loss for the sovcits.
They’d be the first one to advertise all these “wins” against “the system” but they have failed to appear… why is that?
I’ve done a search on this before and there’s plenty of stuff where cop organizations say sovcits can be armed and dangerous and it’s not worth it for them to engage the person
Can’t the police just take the license plate and file the ticket in later at the precinct ? That’s what they often do here in France afaik.
Again, there’d be loads of videos from the sovcits themselves “Watch me beat this ticket in 20 seconds!!” For people that love to film themselves, you think there’d be so many examples of people getting infractions dismissed if it is as common as you say.
I specifically said it was rare. And i would bet that if the cop is being filmed then they’d be much more likely to follow through on giving the ticket. And the avoidance can happen before there’s even a filmable interaction with the police, like the cop choosing not to pull over a car that has a sovcit fake license plate
Yes, the argument failed in the past. But, on the other hand, I’m the main character, so when I do it things will be different.
