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This shit needs to be said. Zionists are using Nazi tactics. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Exactly, Lula is only saying the same thing as millions of other people who don’t have a world stage to say it on.
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Oh oh, you have a different opinion than the majority… Now, it’s raining arguments against you.
Oh, wait… It isn’t. It’s raining downvotes instead, because some people can’t handle a different view on that emotion-driven holocaust comparison above.
I am sure that if the Israeli government gets together they can come up with a solution to the Hamas problem. They can have a conference somewhere, I hear the Wannsee district of Berlin is nice this time of year.
This has become a sort of an edgelord thing to say in the geopolitical arena. It’s obvious that if Israel and IDF was committing genocide with the same passion and planning as Hitler was doing with the jews, this situation would be completely different.
Additionally, Hamas doesn’t declare how many of the killed people have been its fighters. They make it look like all of them are civilians. Are there even estimates about this?
Well, we could probably take the 15000 or so children off the number, I would guess.
Perhaps you cannot. Amnesty International thinks Hamas uses children as soldiers: https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/mde150352004en.pdf
Given their religion (dying in holy war is considered a net positive for the individual) and demographics (half of the people are underage), it makes sense if they did.
Given their religion
Definitely not an argument against a specific point, but a generalization against an entire population. Pretty much ad hominem on a large scale.
What a bigot with no actual argument. Begone now and thank you 😘
Bye
I offered an actual argument with actual data from an impartial source. You seem to have twisted my words in the second paragraph that were directed at Islamist terrorists to encompass a whole population.
Being angry at me for saying this does not help. Be angry at them who cynically employ these strategies. If you are a muslim yourself, you’re at a much better position to make a positive change than I, being a western atheist, am.
Bye
Are you yogthos?
Offering your opinion as an “actual argument with actual data” and a link to amnesty international does NOT constitute a coherent, well formed argument.
Reporting me with “uncivil comment” only shows your evasiveness to real discourse and that you will try to silence and put down anyone that disagrees with because you have no real argument to offer.
Good luck in the real world buddy, you’ll need it.
Offering your opinion as an “actual argument with actual data” and a link to amnesty international does NOT constitute a coherent, well formed argument.
Give me your definition of a well-formed argument, then. I also haven’t seen your argument based on data, just badmouthing me.
Uncivility is the reason I report things, not bad opinions or arguments. The latter is acceptable because correcting those that’s the only way people can learn. Uncivility is unacceptable, since that only causes harm. If you don’t see how you were uncivil, I suggest you go read your comment more carefully.
For instance
Good luck in the real world buddy, you’ll need it.
Uncivil. Do you see it now? Thanks to federation, you can imagine your own rules in your own server obviously, but it doesn’t remove the fact of how you’re behaving.
I would also call out how unclassy it is to make rude comments on regular threads with an “admin” account, but that’s another one of your freedoms of running your own instance. But if you keep doing that, at some point other admins will start blocking your instance.
What a leap of faith #justaskingquestions guesture towards a conclusion during a time where there is really no way to know.
Curb your bias.
Shouldn’t people stop posting those death figures, then?
As someone from Germany, reading this makes me angry.
I don’t have the solution for this conflict, but when seeing the concentration camps in my country and understanding how much they must have hated Jews that they aimed to kill EVERYONE of them…
This is not the same! We all know that Israel did not even want to be there until Hamas butchered and kidnapped Israelis last year. Otherwise, they could have stayed there during the last invasion.
The holocaust comparison does not help anyone.
Edit: Very nice… Downvoting different views on this comparison without sharing arguments… Closing the door for discourse is always very useful!!!111 There is actually much we could agree on regarding this war, but yeah, go ahead and dislike me for not sharing your view that this is like the Holocaust. I’m from Germany where we visited tge remains of concentration camps twice during school time… What do I know…? :/
Germany’s role as a moral shield for Israel’s genocide is the most disgusting part of this whole ordeal.
I’ve read about the Staatsräson with some bemusement. It seems that Germany’s lesson from the Holocaust is not that there should be no more genocide but that Zionist Jews can do whatever they want.
Germany is always on the wrong side of history it seems.
If you want Germany to atone for Nazism, give Israel your country rather than making the Palestinians pay for your crimes for the last 75 years.
If you want Germany to atone for Nazism, give Israel your country
Sounds fancy, but this is as realistic as a permanent peace with Gaza as long as it is controlled by the Hamas terrorists that have the main goal to destroy Israel.
Staatsräson
In Germany, the word is criticised, because of the “Interpretationsspielraum” (“wiggle room”).
but that Zionist Jews can do whatever they want.
There are multiple German politicians warning about a disaster in Rafah, about flooding tunnels with sea water, etc. Acting like Germany is cheering “Well done, go on!!!” is far away from the truth.
Germany is always on the wrong side of history it seems.
Interesting, because Germany was and is kind of well aligned with the Western World for the last decades…
I don’t necessarily agree with every point from the previous poster, but saying Germany is in line with the western world isn’t exactly a defense because the western world hasn’t exactly been above reproach for the last 25 years. There is a lot of Muslim blood on several countries hands. I understand that you argued that the Palestinians struck first, but when you look at the overall death toll, it’s pretty clear that it isn’t the west getting slaughtered on a regular basis in the last decades.
I don’t necessarily agree with every point from the previous poster, but saying Germany is in line with the western world isn’t exactly a defense because the western world hasn’t exactly been above reproach for the last 25 years.
I did not see it as a defense… More like a “Maybe, you are on the wrong side, too”…
I understand that you argued that the Palestinians struck first, but when you look at the overall death toll, it’s pretty clear that it isn’t the west getting slaughtered on a regular basis in the last decades.
The numbers were always like that. Hamas kills X Israelis, Israel reacts and kill X * 10 Palestinians.
Thus, Hamas knew how bad the consequences of the latest massacre could be. I think, Hamas wanted all this. They wanted these pictures. They wanted to separate Israel and some Muslim-countries. One more reason to make sure, they lose power.
Whether they wanted it or not, they aren’t the ones personally pulling the trigger on Palestinians. The Israelis still have a choice about how they respond, and they’ve chosen utter annihilation. Just because you are baited doesn’t mean you have to take the bait.
Just because you are baited doesn’t mean you have to take the bait.
Sure. But what’s the alternative? Relaxing and waiting for the next attack?
Hamas’ primary goal is to destroy Israel. If they stay in power, there will be a next time…
A measured response. Tactical assimilation of the population until they are united. Education measures to show that historically they are the same people originating from the same region, and they can coexist together rather than enforce an apartheid.
Those are just a few alternatives to wholesale slaughter of an entire region, and Israel has the available resources to do it.
Israel cannot let Palestinians live as human beings because they out-number the Israelis. Giving then rights would give the Palestinians a majority in voting etc. So the Israeli’s opted to treat the Palestinians like sub humans. Treating an entire country as subhumans… For decades… has consequences.
Israel cannot let Palestinians live as human beings because they out-number the Israelis.
Is this even true? As far as I know, there are more people in Israel than people in Westbank + Gaza combined.
Giving then rights would give the Palestinians a majority in voting etc.
There are some common solution suggestions (2-state-solution or even 3-state-solution) which don’t require giving Palestinians rights in Israel, but rather rights in their own state(s).
So many Palestinians live outside of Palestine. Imagine if their homes haven’t been bulldozed over the last few decades or settlements haven’t been built around the last few “Palestinian towns.” They would have been able to flourish instead of this mess where they get to watch invaders destroy old villages.
So many Palestinians live outside of Palestine.
And what about Israelis outside of Israel?
Just curious…
Do you have a source?
I’m not sure what you even mean.
I asked whether you have also counted Israelis outside of Israel in your equation…
And I asked whether you have a source that shows how many Palestinians live outside of the Palestine area… Would be interesting to know how many…
I’m not sure, why this deserves downvotes, but alright… I might have triggered some people with my general opinion…
Someone who wants to enter a debate about the semantics of camps and genocide should easily be able to find this info. How about a question for you? How many Palestinians exist in the whole world and how many have even bothered attacking a single Israeli despite decades of persecution; which may be unprecedented. Even Hitler’s hate did not last this long.
There are 2 million Palestinians that Israel is trying to push outside of Palestine or outright MURDER. If those monsters get there way, most Palestinians will now live outside Palestine. But people are over here questioning if Israel hasn’t been trying to get rid of Palestinian culture or traditions; like they do not have a giant death toll on their hands over THREE decades of time. Completely ignoring the fact that more and more houses in the West Bank are being stolen and given to foreigners simply because those foreigners are Jewish.
I asked whether you have also counted Israelis outside of Israel in your equation…
Why even ask this? Do you consider Palestinians and Israelis the same? Before Israel, 5% of the Palestinian population were Jewish [and most of those Jews were Russian immigrants, not “Sons of the land”]. Did some of these people move out or something? Seriously, what is the relevance here?
AfD voter detected.
Edit: just to be clear in case you are genuinely uninformed, a good starting point for understanding why shit goes down in Gaza right now and why Israel is wrong is as simple as reading the Wikipedia page for example. It did not start with October 7.
This is not about a “different” point of view.
Two things can both be bad without being equally bad.
The war has been terrible. But do you really think it’s been as bad as Treblinka or Babi Yar?
Agreed. However just so you understand, we have two different things here. One thing happened in the past and concluded. We got knowledge of it after the fact. It’s well documented and remembered.
The other one started happening right around the previous one concluded, and is happening right now. We have the awareness of it, but the beholders are largely powerless to stop it, while the powers that could stop it put more fuel on the fire instead or look the other way.
Edit: let’s also take OP’s opening statement apart. “As someone from Germany”. Okay? That makes them some sort of expert on the topic? Are they trying to appeal to authority? Or is this a form of gatekeeping, that if something is not as bad as the Holocaust was, then it can’t be bad or genocide?
The beginning of the ‘Final Solution’ was in June of 1941, and began with the death squads of the Einsatzgruppen murduring Jews as part of Operation Barbarossa.
The commander of Einsatzkommando 3 submitted a fairly detailed report of his squad’s daily murder count by location. Through November 25th of that year, his squad alone murdered 57,338 Jewish men, 48,592 Jewish women, and 29,461 Jewish children.
Babi Yar happened on September 29th and 30th, 1941 - only about 4 months into the Final Solution. Germans put posters up in Kyiv, saying that any Jews who didn’t show up to be relocated would be shot. They took the crowd of 33k people to a ravine, herded them forwards and machine gunned them all down.
Is the Holocaust really the most apt historical comparison? Yes, the Holocaust is in the past, while this is ongoing. But the early days of the Holocaust were incredibly bloody; the massacres didn’t ramp up slowly once the killings commenced.
It is the most apt comparison, since the Holocaust mostly happened to jews, and now the descendants of them are doing what was done to them: ethnic cleansing.
Are they trying to appeal to authority? Or is this a form of gatekeeping, that if something is not as bad as the Holocaust was, then it can’t be bad or genocide?
We have heard the bullshit comparison over and over agin. Abbas made it before the attack started. This war… Call it bad, call it brutal, but don’t call it “holocaust” just to impress others or because it’s a fancy word or because it makes you feel betzer or for whatever reason…
Gaza has been a concentration camp for a long time now.
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I didn’t realize you were THE concentration camp expert. Perhaps I should go to you the next time I need a “proper definition” of what concentration camp and genocide is? My apologies.
No it hasn’t.
The concentration camps in the east, like Auschwitz, were almost exclusively extermination camps meant to wipe out whoever entered on an industrial scale. Gaza is not an extermination camp.
The “normal” concentration camps weren’t significantly better. Around 10% - 50% of inmates died, depending on the camp - be it from starvation, illness, medical experimentation or just live target practice.
Is every single Gazan enslaved and forced to build Israeli weapons and does Israel prevent Gazans from leaving under threat of collective punishment?
Gaza is the dictionary definition of a ghetto, not a concentration camp.
The concentration camps in the east, like Auschwitz…
So what. What do you want me to say?: “Well OK, Hitler was better at making concentration camps.”
The “normal” concentration camps weren’t significantly better. Around 10% - 50% of inmates died, depending on the camp - be it from starvation, illness, medical experimentation or just live target practice.
For the last few decades, getting aid into Gaza has been difficult. Isreal has refused to relinquish it as it’s own territory; even though it was obvious these people don’t want to be Isreali.
Is every single Gazan enslaved and forced to build Israeli weapons
Isreal has Biden on speed dial; why do Gazan children need to build wepons for Isreal?
does Israel prevent Gazans from leaving under threat of collective punishment?
You are right. They got punished for staying on their land. The issue is you don’t understand why Palestinians are punished. Not being Jewish is NOT a crime. Speaking Arabic is not a crime. Imagine if you go tell the French, “All Roman Catholic Latin speakers need to go back to Rome.” Palestinians are a natural product of history. History did not stop in when Israel fell in 722 BC or when Judah fell in the 500s BC.
Gaza is the dictionary definition of a ghetto, not a concentration camp.
A ghetto? In what context is Gaza a ghetto? A ghetto is supposed to be an impoverished part of a city. Israel has caused that whole side of the country to be a locked down and short of resources; including the areas around the city.
For me, this sounds like you want to say something that sounds cool, rather than something you actually believe. It sounds driven by emotion rather than by rationality.
The lemmy community gives you upvotes, the historians would ask you WTF you are doing and send you an invitation to actually visit what has been such a concentration camp.
Just because it’s not a Nazi camp, doesn’t mean it isn’t a camp. European Jews don’t own the trademark on misery (even if they had misery in the recent past).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans
It was called concentration camp above. That’s what I criticized.
If you have this much time to argue about what is a concentration camp, you have time to answer these nonsensical questions yourself. Why does Israeli defense essentially start with:
We’ll actually guys technically…
Imagine if I said the Holocaust was not genocide because enough European Jews were left to start Israel (there were millions left). You would rightfully call me an idiot.
Why does Israeli defense essentially start with…
Their defense starts with “They attacked us, we are defending ourselves and that’s our right. And to ensure that this does not happen again, we need to get rid of the terror organization Hamas.”
I’m not a fan of how many civilians are getting killed.
On the other hand, keeping Hamas in power will ensure that this will go on forever and civilian on both sides will still be killed in decades with multiple 1-3-year gaps of pseudo-peace between.
Why do the Palestinians who get kicked out of their homes not count. You ignore crimes.
History didn’t start on Oct 7th
We all know that Israel did not even want to be there until Hamas butchered and kidnapped Israelis last year.
Also German here. If you haven’t yet acknowledged that the Israeli right-wing has been openly racist and fascist for decades now, committing war crimes left and right in the West Bank and in its overall treatment of Gaza (even without direct settlement) you’re acknowledging less than the foreign service. If you think that “Benjamin von Papen” or “Itamir Ben-Hitler” are off-base (as opposed to merely edgy) you know neither our own history, nor anything about the current state of Israeli politics.
Remember that what’s currently litigated before the ICJ is not “did Israel do bad stuff” but “Is Israel guilty of genocide, or merely extensive war crimes”.
The German foreign service has been stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to Israel for quite a while, now. “Israel has a right to exist, Jews have a right to a place they can legitimately call home and feel safe in” vs. “A fascist Israel is not a safe home for anyone, including Jews”. Language-wise they always emphasise the former while when you look at UN votes, aid spending etc. the emphasis is on the latter.
The difference to historical Germany is, pretty much, that constitutionally speaking Israel is still in the Weimar stage and somehow unlike Germany back then isn’t engaged in a right-out shooting war between civil society factions. Kahanites are way better at optics than the NSDAP ever was, knows how to spin things abroad, “bombing civilians is self-defence”. They also have a convenient fig-leaf in Palestinian fascists (Hamas), and vice versa. There’s going to be no security for Israelis without Palestinian freedom, and no Palestinian freedom without Israeli security, fascists simply aren’t interested in that they want to continue their eternal war, it’s where they derive their power from.
Also German here. If you haven’t yet acknowledged that the Israeli right-wing has been openly racist and fascist for decades now, committing war crimes left and right in the West Bank and in its overall treatment of Gaza (even without direct settlement) you’re acknowledging less than the foreign service.
Gaza is not West bank! I did not claim that Netanyahu does not want to control parts of the west bank area.
Remember that what’s currently litigated before the ICJ is not “did Israel do bad stuff” but “Is Israel guilty of genocide, or merely extensive war crimes”.
And they are more qualified to decide that than you or me or all the others here who use buzzword like “holocaust”, “concentration camp”, “genocide”, … like it’s their default vocabulary to build sentences.
There’s going to be no security for Israelis without Palestinian freedom, and no Palestinian freedom without Israeli security
I agree with that part.
And in my opinion, for Plastinian freedom and a secure Israel, Hamas must lose power, Netanyahu must lose power and 2 new government need to negotiate a 2-states-solution.
Gaza is not West bank! I did not claim that Netanyahu does not want to control parts of the west bank area.
Kahanites want all of the territories. Netanyahu (not strictly a Kahanite) wants all of the territories. Different policies do not imply different goals and that’s even presupposing that it’s different policies: The West Bank is getting cut up into small enclaves surrounded by settler-controlled regions, if that goes on just a bit longer then there’s going to be a thousand individual Gazas there.
And they are more qualified to decide that than you or me or all the others here who use buzzword like “holocaust”, “concentration camp”, “genocide”, … like it’s their default vocabulary to build sentences.
Possibly. But you shouldn’t be so pedantic as to not understand the meaning behind what people say, it might be different to what the same words would mean if they were to come out of your mouth.
The ICJ case isn’t looking good for Israel, though, given that they’re in gross violation of the preliminary injunction: That “Israel is required to let adequate humanitarian aid through” bullet point was a piece of rope and the war cabinet is hanging itself with it instead of climbing out of the hole they dug for themselves.
Hamas must lose power, Netanyahu must lose power and 2 new government need to negotiate a 2-states-solution.
Two states is getting less and less viable, the settlers have made sure of that. Maybe a one-state solution in the image of Belgium: Strong cultural and political independence but, very crucially, one army.
But you shouldn’t be so pedantic as to not understand the meaning behind what people say
Oh, I understand the meaning of holocaust and regarding “meaning”, I understand that people want to take the situation in Gaza and describe it as bad as possible… And then, they find the word “holocaust” and use it…
The problem: Most words have definitions. And if Lula says “it’s like the Holocaust”, he should expect that historians or maybe only random internet users look up the world “holocaust” and tell him that there are some huge differences. And that’s pretty much what I’m doing here.
Two states is getting less and less viable, the settlers have made sure of that. Maybe a one-state solution in the image of Belgium: Strong cultural and political independence but, very crucially, one army.
Let me make it even simpler. We are talking about N-state-solutions (N is some number) here. With Hamas (you know, those, who state that their main goal is to destroy Israel) in power, there is no chance for a permanent solution at all. I just hope that 1) Hamas loses power, followed by 2) Netanyahu losing power. This makes actual solutions possible.
And if Lula says “it’s like the Holocaust”, he should expect that historians or maybe only random internet users look up the world “holocaust” and tell him that there are some huge differences.
You can find huge differences between any two events if you look closely enough. How different things have to be to be “like” is not a constant and the man is Brazilian, not German.
I just hope that 1) Hamas loses power, followed by 2) Netanyahu losing power. This makes actual solutions possible.
I mean yes but at the very least you also need Israel to actually crack down on extremists, that Otzma Yehudit wasn’t immediate outlawed as a successor to the Kach party is not tenable, they really need to start treating Lebensraum rhetoric as essentially treason. Same goes for “they may live here but this is a Jewish state that means they don’t have the same rights” apartheid rhetoric from radical Settlers.
The extreme right don’t have that broad of a basis in each camp but, well, there’s a reason I called Netanyahu Benjamin von Papen. Hamas’ rule in Gaza has always been straight-up dictatorial. Media perception is also a huge issue: Many Palestinians don’t know the extent of what Hamas did because al Jazeera doesn’t want to show it and the IDF frankly speaking is known to lie without blushing, and the Israeli press is self-censoring, it’s always “our guys and gals on the front”, never, “here’s the civilians they just slaughtered”. Journalists know, journalists also know that noone wants to see it and people would just switch channels, now even less than before the 7th. In that light, let me make a Holocaust comparison as to what will be necessary for things to get better, excuse the poetic license: Israelis being forced at gun-point to look at Gaza’s ruins, “this is what you did by looking away”.
Say what you want about Lula, but he has some balls.
The hypocrisy of supporting Israel is so big that any dictator can get an easy dunk on America and garner massive support. How long is America going to stay in denial on this?
Are you trying to imply that Lula is a dictator?
Oops I thought that Brazil had a coup and was ran by a dictator. But I just googled and Lula is actually a left winger, Bolsanaro was the crazy right winger that tried to do a coup.
Thanks for correcting me
No worries, mate!
Israel is a Terrorist group based on Nazi ideology.
And Nazis are Freedom Fighters based on Hamas ideology.
I don’t think 20+million people have been killed in that conflict, so the scale isn’t quite there. I do agree it’s a genocide with a false pretense of defensive military operations. Israel needs to slow it’s roll though because without US backing it doesn’t exist in the region.
It doesn have to have exactly the same number of people die. It’s a genocide and they’re literally trying to kill all of the Palestinians. It’s not about matching numbers, it’s about the definition.
It’s like no one is reading my second line. I don’t disagree that it’s a genocide. An unimaginable 20+million died because of the German extermination in WWII. The numbers are a poor comparison, everything else matches up.
No lines after the first one. Make it any more correct. A holocaust is a Hebrew term referring to a sacrifice in which the offering was burned completely on an altar.
There is no way in which it was appropriate to use within the context of world war II. That is inappropriate to use now. After all, Holocaust is not the Hebrew term for 20 million.
I virtually agree with most of what you said after that first sentence. The question is why did you feel the need to post that first sentence however.
Fuck them and let them keep it up, then we pull out, and then they get what they deserve
Least genocidal burgueroid
Neither I nor Google know what that last word means friend.
Most inteligent burguerbrain
